You cannot generalize all Non Nude sites with "Pre Teen" Non Nude sites.
The Non Nude webmaster community has it's own rules and regulations. They police there community and work together to make the Non Nude Niche is working with in the law, not outside the law.

That means NOT trading or supporting "Pre Teen" non nude sites and blacklisting webmasters.

I am sure some of the common public is not educated to the fact that all Non Nude sites are NOT "Pre teen" Non Nude sites.
Our community and the common public need to understand that NOT all Non Nude sites are "Pre Teen" .

Fuck it...

I'm now boycotting Barnes and Noble for selling
"Teen" , Seventeen, "Bop", 'YM", "teen YM".....

gadzooks, the gap, Just add water.. b/c they have young girls in suggestive poses....


DONE...

I feel better.. and the world will be a better place.. I"M SURE OF IT...

i am almost speechless after reading that article. What chance will these girls have at a normal life when they ARE 18? What is left for them to do next? And this is all with parental consent? Are these parent's giving consent for these girl's to be molested by sleazy photographers, give them hand jobs or WHATever???

I was in shock when i read that the girl in the first picture, was just 13. Is it that she looks so much older or is it the way she is posed? Don't see poses likethat in the Sears catalog do you. For good fucking reason too.

I have looked at sites and questioned the age of the women depicted on the tours with some companies. If I don't like it, i will not promote it and I will not keep my mouth shut either.

As far as this non nude modelling being a gateway to mainstraeam modelling............ sounds like women in porn looking to break into mainstream Hollywood. NOT fucking likely. I don't recall Traci Lords being nominated for an Oscar, did I miss that somehow?

And thank you Aly for posting that info about ASACP. It is something I definately want to be involved in.

I have a daughter, and over my fucking DEAD BODY would i allow that. She too looks much older and at 11 years old and 5'6 I see grown men looking at her and it makes me want to tear their heads off. She has told older boys that show interest in her "I am only 11". Any parent who allows these seductive pictures to be taken of their children, and no matter how fast they grow up now and how the media is twisted their minds, they are STILL CHILDREN, should have their kids removed from their homes and be charged with abuse.

Is there anything anymore that is sacred???

I'll just hit this very briefly. If I don't then I would be here for hours on this subject as it is a very tender subject for me as a mother of 4 kids, two of which are girls. One age 4 and one age 18........

If I EVER caught one of my kids, male or female in a situation like this I would come unglued. I can't IMAGINE these girls parents allowing this, I know they do but they are some sick sick fucks in my opinion. ANYTHING being of a sexual nature to girls under the age of 18 is just sick and their parents should be shot.........

If their parents do NOT know they are doing this, then they need to be a bit more involved with what their kids are doing on these damn computers. My kids ALL have access to the internet but know without a doubt that at ANY given time I will go and see what they have been doing and if I even catch a hint of them doing anything like this, they lose access to a computer. The younger kids computer is in main line of traffic, so I can see what they are doing.... my 18 yr old has her computer in her room.... which still makes me a bit nervous, but she is 18, I worry more about men fucking with her head than her looking at porn......

These parents that allow this or "don't know" to me one is just as bad as the other..... this is just plain wrong. I realize at the age of 16 they are experimenting with sex and such...... but they should be taught the right way and the wrong way to go about things, and making it viewable on the internet is NOT the right thing to do at that age.

This just makes me sick all the way around.... and SOMEONE should be teaching these girls more than what they are teaching them!!!!!

Is there anything anymore that is sacred???


__________________



KICK MIDGETS MIDGETS MIDGETS

=============================

hypocracy knows no bounds
:eek:

love ya Shannon.... ;-))

again.. that distinction of art vs kp.... who wants to draw it... this is a great argument... not that I have a firm stand on either side yet...

but I have already now decided to boycott.. Barnes and Nobel... Gadzooks... etc.. b/c I konw that those magazines.. and ads in their stores... lead to SATAN... child porn.. and teenage pregnancy and cancer....

Theres only one thing that will stop these assholes.

Thats a bat up their ass, so they know what it feels like. Putting logos on your site aint gonna do shit, anyone want to help find these bastards and knock on their front door with me?

:badcomp:

As disapointing as this whole concept of exploiting underage children as a front end to selling "porn" will not be something that will be easily erradicated. Our industry struggles to combat actual infractions of pedophilia and CP [those things that are regulated by law].

Yup, this is with great ethical compromise but ethics has not always turned the wheels of justice.

Our industry is not as strong of a community as we once were for several reasons, and our industry cannot police the bad decisions of others. However, each webmaster can decide what lines they cross and focus on navigating their own careers, [ie-chosing of "ethical" alliances, not supporting traffic avenues that accept these dispicable sites, drop sponsors that accept these kind of affiliates etc. etc. etc.]

As the dollars become laborious to make, you will continue to see erosion in some webmasters moral fabric in hopes of capturing a niche that pays well with little time investment and effort [ "unusual content"].

All YOU can do for this situation posturing of minors to sell sex is:

a) DON'T resort to this to make a fast back
b) DON't enable any webmaster engaging in this practice [traff swaps]
c) REPORT to sponsors sites that carry this content
d) Alert traffic TGP's. linkgs, toplists, AVS proggies that carry these sites

Lastly:

Visit a dentist for a bite plate for those times when we grind our teeth knowing this child explitation problem has no real solution.

For every CP shutdown it pops up somewhere else...and clearly this is the worst of the 2 situations in this thread [actual CP vs exploitation clothed], and its still with us.

Oh my god ... I felt like I should be arrested for just clicking on those links ... I'm clear my cache .. I suggest that y'all do the same ...

This is all very disturbing. I actually watched this on a talk show the other day (I think it was the John Walsh show...) I honestly think these people need to be stopped and arrested. We need to report them and the last thing we should do is encourage them by posting their links JUST REPORT THEM ASAP!!!

It's obvious the world we live in isn't perfect, but why would someone exploit children?!? It really makes me sick and sad...

And how about the parents of these little girls? Are they crazy? Don't they realize what's going on out there?

Well, were not going to change the world, but we can start to make a difference!

Lee,

It's a shitty thread to jump in on but I haven't talked with you in awhile, hit me up when you get a chance, 92440098 on the icq or shawn@tooley.us You know I love it when you're on your knees ;)


Anyways my take on the thread, this shit is detrimental to our industry as a whole, one bad apple spoils the whole damn bunch. Greg, I love ya but as a content provider I would have hoped you made a clearer statement on how detrimental to our industry this shit is.

Police ourselves or wait for a 60-year-old bald guy on Capitol Hill to do it for us, me I choose us as the better judge.

The first time I saw KP I was working in an office for a major co and clicked in a webmaster sign up. I went into the bathroom and almost vomitted and quit my job on the spot. I stood in that bathroom and re-evaluated my job. These were very young girls being exploited. You can't vote, you can't drive, you cant' drink but you can pose nude or in suggestive poses? That is ALL wrong.

That was 2 years ago, and I now have decided to be FAR more pro-active in drawing lines of distinction. Emailing MTV about banning Britnety Spears videos ain't gonna cut it. These people need to be stopped in a big way. Everyone has a cause, and fuck this seems a damn good one. I can get over some women being exploited and pretending they like spunk in their eyes, but THIS is not acceptable.

Like I said, a Bat and a knock on the door. Works wonders.

Well we all agree that it is ALL fucking wrong!

Ladies, remember when we were approached by all those loser, older scumbag, pedophile sick fucks?! Ya you do! (sorta like now but a wee bit different)

I will tell you what, I am so much more aware now than I ever was...My brother, nephew's, my bestfriends daughter ( who can kick ass!) If ANYONE ever did anything I would have to take matters into my own hands. A steak knife can do wonders!!

This is kinda old news in the mainstream world. (at least for us)
When we first started buying per click traffic in mainstream, we got a lot of these non-nude sites sending us traffic. At first we just thought they teen sites made by other teens. Since they WERE NOT pushing porn, we didn't have a problem. Once we took a closer look though, we realized that this was more a pedophile front type of thing and not a "teen" thing.
So long ago we stopped doing Biz with them.

To those of you arguing that its ok and making dopey comments about teen magazines, I hope its just Chris paying you to be controversial on the board because if you're really that clueless, I feel sorry for you.

I'm now anti Britney Spears and Christina Aguilara...

Their marketing of music via sex appeal when they were underage is just unfathomably... disgusting Britney's mother should be soooo ashamed...

I'll find more...

For the record.. "No I do not agree with taking suggestive pics of kids and using them to market anything"...

But... Yes... Britney, Teen magazine.. etc.. is the same thing... sexually suggestive pictures of underage models... used to sell products...

Was dressing britney in suggestive attire for concerts and pictures... when she was just 15 any different??? Have any of you ever promoted a site to see pics of "katie holmes... Britney... Christina Aguilara... Anna Kournakova.. have you ever cashed a check promoting any of these sites??? what is the difference... PLEASE EXPLAIN to me... b/c i'm missing it...

It's not the site that is wrong, or immoral or illegal. It's the way it's marketed.

If these kids and their parents choose to dress them scantily and take pictures of them in hopes of it helping their future in modeling, so be it. They have every right to do so.

They should not be marketing a child as "the next playboy bunny" or as a teaser to get into hardcore sites. that is just wrong.

Someone had brought up the way we market "barely legal" and "teen" sites. Yes, we are marketing them as young, but not underage.

EvilChris - you mentioned the sears catalog was used to sell clothes or toys - not adult material. Okay, lets take this one step further....

How about seventeen magazine? teen magazine? cosmo girl? all of these magazines ARE selling sexuality to teen girls. Most of the models are underage, dressed to impress, often in the SAME clothes you see the girls in this article in. They talk about sex, boys, getting boys to notice you, how to "be an aggresive woman" etc. etc. etc.

Yet no one seems to have a problem with it. Why? Because it is MARKETED to teen girls for teen girls. Does this mean that the scumbag pedo. doesnt pick up the new issue each month? NO. Hell, most of these mags, you can even find male celebrity (scantily clad) centerfolds in!

It's sad to see that the girls in this article were/are being taken advantage of by their parents and photographers. But that doesnt mean that anyone should come in and shut down all the modeling sites because of some bad apples. If that were the case, we would have all been out of jobs a looooong time ago, because the entire business would have been shut down due to real CP.

In the end, its really the PARENTS job to protect thier children. The girl in the article who wants to quit and her mom wont let her.... I would love to get her mom in a room alone for 5 minutes and beat the hell out of her. That is abuse. A true "modeling" site would not be charging a recurring fee to see a portfolio.

twinkley

Britney played the LOLITA bigtime, and it worked. Well, at least it worked for me :D

I hate to censor, but you'll notice that the few URLs in here for the lolita site have been removed.

Removed. But bookmarked eh Chris :D

You should be anti-MTV then. Popular culture right now is based on sex and violence. I have nothing against sex, and nothing against violence in medias, as long as they are used with a purpose, but that's another very big debate. Most of the video clips we see on tv are from rappers with dozens of nameless babes in bikini (and with hard titties to be more suggestive), sluts like Spears and Aguilera, and violent wannabees like Limp Bizkit. Whether they know it or not, they are influencing a lot of people, the same way public radio was influencing people listening to it when it first appeared. They don't have any responsabilities anymore, and what's even worse is that teens follow the trend like sheeps. My kids will only be able to watch Star Wars me says !

That shit is sick and wrong.

The interesting part is that it's not only the Adult Internet community that's doing it... Calvin Klein got in trouble a few years ago for a series of ads that featured underage models (male & female) in provocative poses that revealed their underwear. He had to pull all the ads. Also it is impossible today to flip through a fashion mag without seeing 15-year-old models posing like 21-year-old porn stars.

And yet when the hammer falls WE are the ones who will pay.


B

very true

"get all you can today kids, dont leave anything for tomorrow"

color me pessimistic, the future looks pretty bleak

Well of course we are gonna pay Barry our business uses underage clothed minors as a front end for teen sex [even if 18+], in these times I doubt Calvin Klein would be challenged...and their models were front ended for undergarments which does not provoke public reaction like front end to sex will.

I think that a very big reason why kids are so damn stupid nowadays is because of their parents who don't care of what they watch and listen to. When I was a kid I could not watch TV during the week or watch violent movies. It took forever before my parents let me watch the batman movie. Of course I was not very happy about it but now I am. My parents thought me good values I think. Even then I don't watch much tv (but lots of movies) and I find that most violent medias are totally wrong.

Lee you are right. And as an industry we should work together against individuals who run sites like that. But as the article states these sites exist with full parental approval. They are the ones who could shut down these sites immediately but don't because they are just as greedy as the webmasters and they know they will never face any legal liability.

Modeling portfolios for 13-year-old girls do not need to include provocative poses in string bikinis.

B

Having never had to stoop to this level, I wouldn't know and can therefore (as usual) cast stones.

I am all for shaking things up. As a photographer and webmaster well all I can say is just tell me how to help. This is horrible. I am not surprised but I am sickened by this. Sigh! Allie let us know what we can do.

and ya ended up being a pornographer... hehe ;-))

Yeah, we all turned to porn, how ironic and back in the old days when the net first became profitable, alot of interesting backgrounds, like engineers, accountants etc....

As for this underage thing, nothing can surprise many that have been thru this adult net evolution from beginning. We realize we can only fight the battles we can "win", and not support those entities that rub us the wrong way such as the clothed underage models. If it were me I would not associate with any company that supports these sites, and would accept that as my voice in protest, short of that nothing we can do.

Love ya Lee... ;-))

Did ya have a nice visit with Faye??? heard she was heading your way after Curacao???

Hey'a Greg, Fay had less than 24 hours with me and I took her pier fishing in Daytona area, and she caught 1 grouper [undersized] but was still arounf 15 inches and one keeper mangrove snapper. Fishing is my love and my 4 grouper and 3 Snapper did not count because they wer all undersized...

Bottom line, Fay out FISHED me! Argh :-)

How ya been my friend?

Yup hehe
But notice that my parents did not stop me from watching sexy stuff. Of course they would not have let me watch a porno at 12, but they were pretty open minded when it came to sexuality and thought me all I needed to know and explained it too. They were not the ones shy about talking about it, it was me hehe
I remember when I was a teen, maybe 15 or 16, my mom took a book about teens at the library and it was refering to masturbation in it and she asked us (my twin brother and I) if we started doing it already (with a big smile cause she knew we were shy about it, and was not expecting an answer from us anyway), and my dad yelled from the other room "I HOPE YOU GUYS DO". hehe
I think that day I figured that masturbation was not a bad thing.

haha nice... horg...


Lee.. sounds like fun... i'm workin on my fly fishin' techniques... tell ya its a challenge... !!! especially when ya only do it once a month...

cheers

Well Said Aly....
There is no excuse for an attempt to make money at the expense of our most innocent. In My Humble opinion.. those who would endevor to do so are no better than the pedophiles who frequent such sites... Perhaps, even worse...

Yup, I'm back :D

Horg, you have no idea how lucky you are. I grew up in a house where sex was seen as something dirty. I even got yelled at for watching Benny Hill!!! Add that to the fact that I'm gay and my parents were Catholic made things even harder. I had major issues as a young adult. It took me a long time undestand what sexuality was all about, especially my own. Wow, there's an interesting side to this conversation. From too much sexuality to not enough. I guess there is a line that you follow as a parent. I think it's best to be open about it without being exploitive. What do your parent's think of you working it this industry?

You see some of those girls, hard to believe they are that young, Breasts like a full grown women on a few of the girls.

These sites are fine, shit they are not nude and if someone wants to look at these pics he can pick up many magazines to see the exact same pictures.

At least its controlled, and its the girls willing and wanting to excell their careers in modeling.

Yes I heard a lot of guys like you kill themselves because it's too hard with conservative parents and conservative neighborhoud to be a young gay male (or young lesbian I guess).

My parent's don't really like me working in this industry because it is a sexist world with exploited women. I personally never met any exploited porn girl but I'm quite sure there are lots of them. This whole thread for example is about almost exploiting kids I think. "Hey kid, how about making lots of money if I take pictures of you in your underwear?". Kids don't know what they are doing at that age... But on the other hand they know that I am only doing graphics and am not getting into trouble so they still talk to me and everything hehe. Thinking of it, I bet if I was an independant photographer doing erotic pictures (not hardcore) and creating my own picture books with my name on it they would be ok with it.

DAVE OMG! Girls develop physically early then ever, emotionally they do not. There have been studies conducted on how differently young girls are treated due to their breast size, everyone from friends, to teachers to strange men leering at them cripples their self esteem.

Non nude but WHAT is the target market? Is it Elite modelling, Ford perhaps? Is that where Madonna looks for her extras in her videos? Or no wait, her CASTING agent does riht??? Is that how Linda Evangelista and Christy Turlington were discovered? Posing scantlily clad on the internet while underage? I think not. These non nude sites are a gateway for pedophiles. Girls that young, don't need to be worrying about becoming playboy bunnies. These are not decisions to be made by young girls. The article that started all this had 7 and 11 year olds in suggestive poses. Fully clothed. THAT is ok?? Would YOU show your friends that and say "hey isn't this cool?".

Yet again, the parallel I draw on "the girls wanting to get excel their careers in modelling" is SUCH a load of shit. That is like porn stars saying they started sucking cock to make it into mainstream. I don't see any Meryl Streeps who started out sucking cock, have you? Please don't bother mentioning Jenna in a couple vidoes and Traci Lords in Melrose where she actually got to speak! GASP

Talk to any reputable modelling agent or agency. I have. They do NOT recommend these bullshit sites to enhance careers, not to mention that any reputable agency, doesn't put 7, 11 and 13 year olds in those suggestive poses. Hence the Calvin Klein ad drama a few years back.

Parent's exploiting their OWN children for a quick buck are worse then the photographers. 7, 11 and 13 year old girls can't vote anywhere as far as I know and sure as fuck not in North America. They can't even drive. Should they be allowed to decide if they should spread their legs or not and look coy??? Should they be allowed to stay out after 11:00 is what the question SHOULD be.


Could not find that soapbox icon for this though it needs it.

same here
 

Gotta agree with ya on this. Am surprised to see what peopel can get away with. Loophols always are there, but I'd think somethign like this would have been looked into.


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