The really big thread!!!!

[Mister X]

So I'm curious. There seems to be nothing but bad news and rumours about the whole Visa situation. For the whole of the last 2 years it seems that there has been a constant stream of new regulations and demands from Visa and to a lesser extent from Mastercard. Several European biling companies have been forced out of business and at least 2 US based billing companies are suing Visa. Or, at least in the case of PSW, intending to anyways.

Since all the crap has been aimed at the adult industry, and not at the mainstream guys like Amazon.com, it kind of gets those conspiracy theory vibes going.

Do you think there is really a conspiracy to gradually squeeze the online porn industry out of business?

And do you think there will be life after Visa if it comes to the end that a lot of people are expecting and they close the door completely on adult?

Most of the so-called "non" credit card billing solutions rely either heavily or completely on credit cards. I kind of doubt that Storm Pay et al will be ignored by the Visa gods forever, because of their strong ties to adult biz.

So let us hear your thoughts, theories and predictions (of doom or sunny skies, hehe).

[Panky]

Ummmm... I've been thinking...

What if it is not so much squeezing the online porn industry out of business but on the lines of the "big boys" in the porn industry putting pressure on Visa and MasterCard to impose fees and regulations to wipe the little guys out?

Visa and MasterCard and the likes, wouldn't want to lose all the business they generate now by trying to eliminate processing for any adult business. Why would they want to? Sure, they need to deal with chargebacks, fraud, and legal issues, but they still make a percentage off of every single transaction. There's lots of money made on transaction fees. I just couldn't see them giving up all that money.

What if the major players in porn, decided to protect their name and investors? What if these power players decided that because it is somewhat easy to get an account to process through Visa and MasterCard, that there were an increasing number of fly by night companies and scamsters who get in trouble and cause negative publicity? What if, by presenting this idea of certain fees and different regulations to Visa and MasterCard and by convincing Visa and MasterCard that it is in their best interest to do so, that the result would be that only people really serious about their business would dish out the fees and follow regulations. Maybe better quality sites, products and services would develop, and in essence weed out the junk?

The Internet has made it possible for any average human with a computer, connection, and few skills to become wealthy individuals. Porn draws people because people read headlines that "porn" grossed billions worth of business in a year. People figure well MLM didn't work for me, maybe porn will. Maybe making it more difficult to obtain merchant accounts is one way the "porn industry" protects itself?

I don't know. It was just a thought.

[Mister X]

Now that's a totally new conspiracy theory!

Interesting but I kind of doubt that even the biggest player in the biz has the juice with Visa to do it. And if you go by the rumours the biggest players are the biggest crooks anyways, hahaha. So they wouldn't want to make it any harder on themselves. If the rumours are true anyways.

Hmmmm.... do I smell another theory?

[NetRodent]

Originally posted by Panky
Visa and MasterCard and the likes, wouldn't want to lose all the business they generate now by trying to eliminate processing for any adult business. Why would they want to? Sure, they need to deal with chargebacks, fraud, and legal issues, but they still make a percentage off of every single transaction. There's lots of money made on transaction fees. I just couldn't see them giving up all that money.

According to the Visa website, "In 2002, $2.4 trillion in goods and services were purchased using Visa products."

According to the MasterCard website, their processing volume for 2002 was $1.14 trillion.

Even if we go with the some of the higher revenue estimates for the online adult industry, we're only looking at around 10 billion per year.

Assuming all of that 10 billion was generated with Visa's and MasterCards (lets ingnore Discover, checks, dialers, etc.) we're still looking at only 0.2% of Visa and MasterCard's volume.

Adult is insignficant to Visa and MasterCard.

[Magnus3x]

Adult is insignficant to Visa and MasterCard.

Pretty much sums it up....they would'nt be doing this if they thought they would see such a signifigant drop in business.

[-=HUNGRYMAN=-]

Originally posted by Mister X


Now that's a totally new conspiracy theory!

Actually ... it is not a theory

I know somebody who is in "BIG BUSINESS" ... and they (big business collectively) have been lobbying Visa to tighten its policies for years ... it is only now that Visa has decided to listen to them ...


And do not kid yourself .. BIG BUSINESS is just as much in porn as you and I are ... they know it sells

Bet you did not know that GENERAL MOTORS owns the closed circuit satellite distribution network that pumps XXX movies into almost every hotel room in North America ???

and that is just a very small kick in the bucket ...

some PPL have no clue at all as to the real powers that be in this industry ... you think Joe Lackey and Ron Levi own adultnet ??? Think again ...

[Mister X]

Actually I did know that GM owns a chunk of the satellite biz. But that isn't online porn and they don't have big hassles with Visa. And who cares who really owns what? As long as the large majority of companies are privately held we will never know for sure who owns what or what they really make.

I stick by what I said about the biggest player in the porn biz not having the juice to influence Visa in the slightest in anything. Porn is a tiny little drop in their planet sized bucket. I would be a lot more likely to believe that the extreme conservative politics of the current US gov't have a hell of a lot more to do with it. Visa is a lot more likely to listen to gentle hints from Washington than they are to demands from anybody in the porn biz. After all the people who might make those "suggestions" are the same people who control things like the Federal Trade Comission and other organizations charged with the monitoring of the behemoths.

Is it a coincidence that their policies have been growing more and more restrictive since GW? You be the judge!

[1000facials]

Are you for real ? Visa's cut of $10 billion dollars is not chump change regardless how many gazillion dollars a year they make.

You don't even know the most influencial people in online porn, as they do not hang out on message boards, and they do not go to IA 2000 or any other 'webmaster events', so I'd say you are very poorly qualified in saying that they have no clout with the banks that clear them ?

Everybody who is known on messageboards is merely an internet entrapeneur, who do not even make 5% of corporate online porn.

Man are you ever naive

I bet you've been brainwashed into thinking whoever you promote or work for are 'movers and shakers' of the industry ... hold onto that facade for as long as you can ...

Maybe Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy buy site memberships too!

[NetRodent]

Originally posted by 1000facials
Are you for real ? Visa's cut of $10 billion dollars is not chump change regardless how many gazillion dollars a year they make.

Yes, it is chump change for Visa. Especially when you consider corporate image, consumer confidence, governmental policy. How much of $10 billion do you think actually makes it into Visa's coffers?

Originally posted by 1000facials
You don't even know the most influencial people in online porn, as they do not hang out on message boards, and they do not go to IA 2000 or any other 'webmaster events', so I'd say you are very poorly qualified in saying that they have no clout with the banks that clear them ?

This is spooky. You know who I know and who I don't. Are you psychic or omniscient?

Where did I mention anything about clout with acquiring banks? Visa is a consortium of about 21,000 "banks". You could own one of the the vast majority of those banks and still have no clout with Visa.

Originally posted by 1000facials
Everybody who is known on messageboards is merely an internet entrapeneur, who do not even make 5% of corporate online porn.

Again, who said anything about message boards? You're starting to not make sense. If everybody who's "known" in the industry is only 5% of the pie? Who is this shadowy cabal of super secret porn purveyors? Which corporations are heavily involved in online porn? Where are their sites? Where do you they get their traffic? Why has nobody noticed?

To account for 95% of online porn would take a lot of traffic. You can't get that sort of volume just anywhere online. Traffic doesn't come out of black holes, it has to come from somewhere. The only place that you could plausibly get traffic in that volume is from the isp's or search engines and that's just not happening.

Remember, we're talking about online porn. Cable, satellite, hotel pay-per-view, strip clubs, dvd/video sales etc. are not generally considered online porn. You also can't count all of AOL's revenue as online porn simply because they have a few adult chat rooms.

If you said online porn is 5% of the porn industry you may be in the ballpark, but to say that the known online porn industry is only 5% of the entire online porn industry doesn't make sense. Particularly when you don't say who is the other 95%.

Originally posted by 1000facials
Man are you ever naive

Do you really not know what you're talking about or are you just trolling for attention?

Originally posted by 1000facials
I bet you've been brainwashed into thinking whoever you promote or work for are 'movers and shakers' of the industry ... hold onto that facade for as long as you can ...

Gee, you do make a lot of assumptions about me don't you? I have to wonder if your whole post is nothing but assuptions. You sure don't present any evidence.

Originally posted by 1000facials
Maybe Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy buy site memberships too!

Man, you're creeping me out again. We have had Santa Claus try to join one of our sites, but he was declined. Go figure. Oddly we're also had Richard Nixon, Julius Caesar, Lil Abner and a few other suspicious names try as well.

[NetRodent]

Originally posted by -=HUNGRYMAN=-
Actually ... it is not a theory

I know somebody who is in "BIG BUSINESS" ... and they (big business collectively) have been lobbying Visa to tighten its policies for years ... it is only now that Visa has decided to listen to them ...

I'm sorry but this just doesn't make sense. You're friend told you that his company is involved in an anti-competitive conspiracy? If this sort of thing is going on, its not the sort of thing people in the know talk about. On the other hand, people who have no clue what's going on might say something like that to impress others.

Originally posted by -=HUNGRYMAN=-
And do not kid yourself .. BIG BUSINESS is just as much in porn as you and I are ... they know it sells

Bet you did not know that GENERAL MOTORS owns the closed circuit satellite distribution network that pumps XXX movies into almost every hotel room in North America ???

and that is just a very small kick in the bucket ...

I don't think anyone with any awareness of the adult industry disputes this. However, big business has not really developed much of an online presence so far. However, the day is coming when they will, and that will be the end of most adult sites we know to today. Those that remain will probably be the online equivalent of pirate radio.

[Mister X]

It's worth pointing out that the figure of 10 billion dollars for online porn is just a big fat guess. Other estimates are 3 to 4 billion a year. As I already pointed out, the great majority of online porn is coming from privately held companies which do NOT make annual reports. I very much doubt that Visa gets more than maybe 8 or 9 percent of that action at the very most as transaction fees. And it's probably significantly less. Lets be really generous and say they get 10 percent cuz that makes it easier to do the math. That's a billion dollars. "Oh my god", you say, "that's huge!" Well not really. 10 percent of 2.4 TRILLION is 240 billion. So that means that online porn is less than one HALF of one percent of the total. Except that visa accounts for somewhere in the neighbourhood of 40 to 45 percent of online porn transactions. So that drops it to a maybe 450 million at most. That's about one fifth of 1 percent of Visa's total.

Nobody knows for sure but the biggest player in the industry certainly comes in at well under 1 billion a year. So the mysterious big players that us little fish are too "naive" to know about are definitely not going to be high up on the influence list with Visa.

As far as companies being owned in secret by Big Business... very doubtful. If GE or Microsoft or any other publicly traded company had investments in online porn it would be common knowledge. Publicly traded companies have to account for every single bit of income and every investment they make in public reports every year. It would be big news if they had investments in porn and every paper or news website in the country would be running the story. Maybe Paul Allen or Chairman Bill or one of the other billionaires out there has private investments but the companies they work for? Nope.

[1000facials]

Net Rodent :

How did you come to the conclusion I was addressing YOU ??
HAHAHAHAHAAA !!

If you don't want to believe that message board "entrapeneurs" only make up a VERY small percent of the industry ... that is your perrogative dude! ROCK ON WIT YER BAD SELF!

both you and junior X think that Visa's cut of 10 billion is not reguarded as substancial ?

Well to be very politically incorrect, I guess neither of you have tried to steal a dollar from a wealthy Jew ?

But to instantly discredit ideals that don't match your own, is a natural reaction by anybody, so I do not hold you at fault.

I bet you believe a plane crashed into the Pentagon without leaving any traces of fusalege also .... because that is what the gov't told you.

Now before either of you go getting your panties in a knot, I am not claiming to be superior to you, nor am I in any better social class ... I am exactly same as the rest of you. I just think that the attidude of thinking that us PPL on these chat boards RUN the industry, or any sizable portion of it, is totally ABSURD !!! we are small fish

[wsjb78]

Another thing to think about is who are the really big players in this game?

[1000facials]

As far as companies being owned in secret by Big Business... very doubtful. If GE or Microsoft or any other publicly traded company had investments in online porn it would be common knowledge....

hahahahaha

DIRECTV is the nation's leading digital satellite television service provider with more than 11.4 million customers. DIRECTV and the Cyclone Design logo are registered trademarks of DIRECTV, Inc., a unit of Hughes Electronics Corporation. HUGHES is the world's leading provider of digital television entertainment, broadband services, satellite-based private business networks, and global video and data broadcasting. The earnings of HUGHES, a unit of General Motors Corporation, are used to calculate the earnings attributable to the General Motors Class H common stock (NYSE: GMH).

You think Direct TV makes it's $$ from PPV boxing ?

I'm just getting warmed up dude ... how much more ammo you got ?
BRING IT ON !!

NEXT !!

[1000facials]

Hey Junior X :

You'd better sit down for this one.

Take a d-e-e-p breath, and CLICK HERE



While I think that many of their figures are way outta whack, and yes they do portray the image of the biz that will get the best Neilson ratings, the who's who is right there for you to see ...

General Motors, through its subsidiary DirecTV, delivers hard- and soft-core porn to homes via satellite. Communications giant Comcast supplies various kinds of porn to homes via pay-per-view. And AOL Time Warner owns a cable company that offers erotic programming from Playboy and other outlets, including hard-core.

Many of the major hotel chains, including Marriott, Hilton and Westin, also derive revenue from adult films without mentioning it in their company reports. Adult titles are available as in-room movies in around 40 percent of all hotel rooms in the United States. The hotels share the revenue with the in-room entertainment companies that provide the TVs and the content.

Hmmmm ... of course I am making all this up though

[NetRodent]

Originally posted by 1000facials
Net Rodent :

How did you come to the conclusion I was addressing YOU ??
HAHAHAHAHAAA !!

How? Mainly because of the following: "Are you for real ? Visa's cut of $10 billion dollars is not chump change regardless how many gazillion dollars a year they make." Seems pretty obvious who you were addressing.

Originally posted by 1000facials
If you don't want to believe that message board "entrapeneurs" only make up a VERY small percent of the industry ... that is your perrogative dude! ROCK ON WIT YER BAD SELF!

Again who said anything about messages boards? We're talking about the online adult industry, not message boards pornographers. I don't know what you fixation on message boards is but you're the only one talking about them.

Originally posted by 1000facials
both you and junior X think that Visa's cut of 10 billion is not reguarded as substancial ?

Well to be very politically incorrect, I guess neither of you have tried to steal a dollar from a wealthy Jew ?

I don't steal but I do have an acquaitance who embezzeled about $50K from a "wealthy Jew". He apologized, promised to pay it back, started working for the guy again and embezzeled another $2K. You know what happened to him? Nothing at all. Which coincidentally has about as much to do with the topic at hand as your "politically incorrect" comment.

I still stand by my original assertion that the revenue Visa and MasterCard generate from online adult is insignificant compared to the other factors weighing on the credit card companies. By their very actions Visa and MasterCard are saying adult isn't important.

Originally posted by 1000facials
But to instantly discredit ideals that don't match your own, is a natural reaction by anybody, so I do not hold you at fault.!

Its only a natural reaction for people to react that way when you're not known to the person, have no reputation, are borderline insulting and provide no evidence or explanation. If you want people to take what you say seriously, drop the juvenile attitude give some evidence and explain your statements clearly.

Originally posted by 1000facials
I bet you believe a plane crashed into the Pentagon without leaving any traces of fusalege also .... because that is what the gov't told you.!

Ah, so you're a sucker for conspiracy theories. That explains the outragous claims with little or no evidence to back them up.

Originally posted by 1000facials
Now before either of you go getting your panties in a knot, I am not claiming to be superior to you, nor am I in any better social class ... I am exactly same as the rest of you. I just think that the attidude of thinking that us PPL on these chat boards RUN the industry, or any sizable portion of it, is totally ABSURD !!! we are small fish

You may be a small fish. However, do you really want to presume to speak for others? Who do you think runs the online adult industry? Lets hear some names: companies, sites, people, etc. Where is this supposed other 95% of online adult?

[NetRodent]

Originally posted by 1000facials
hahahahaha

(snip direct tv blurb)

You think Direct TV makes it's $$ from PPV boxing ?

I'm just getting warmed up dude ... how much more ammo you got ?
BRING IT ON !!

NEXT !!

Yes, yes, everyone knows about DirectTV and its brethren. If you were reading you would see that Hungryman and MisterX already covered that topic. Again we're talking about ONLINE adult not cable or satellite adult entertainment.

Do you have anything RELEVANT to contribute to the discussion?

[NetRodent]

Originally posted by Mister X
If GE or Microsoft or any other publicly traded company had investments in online porn it would be common knowledge. Publicly traded companies have to account for every single bit of income and every investment they make in public reports every year. It would be big news if they had investments in porn and every paper or news website in the country would be running the story. Maybe Paul Allen or Chairman Bill or one of the other billionaires out there has private investments but the companies they work for? Nope.

There are publically traded companies in online porn. For example, NOOF and Digital Rooster. While they are public they can hardly be considered "big business".

[1000facials]

GM and AOL TIme-Warner can hardly be called big either

If you must know, I was originally addressing Junior X

but if you want in on this too, by all means!

SO you tell me ONE good reason why I have to tell you who I am?
because you demand me to do so ?

[NetRodent]

Originally posted by 1000facials
GM and AOL TIme-Warner can hardly be called big either

I don't think anyone said GM or AOL Time-Warner weren't big. They're just not big in online porn. AOL would be a gold mine, but they're still stuck on the squeeky clean family friendly image. We've been talking to them for years but they won't budge.

Originally posted by 1000facials
If you must know, I was originally addressing Junior X

but if you want in on this too, by all means!

If you're asking questions like is there still money to be made in this industry, I'm afraid you don't have much "get in on".

Originally posted by 1000facials
SO you tell me ONE good reason why I have to tell you who I am?
because you demand me to do so ?

I don't recall asking who you were, but you were funny on News Radio.

I did ask, you to support your assumption that 95% of the online porn industry is unknown. I asked who this unknown 95% is. In light of your question about making money, I think there's a good chance I misunderstood you. You must have meant that 95% of the online porn business is unknown to you.

[Mister X]

Originally posted by 1000facials
hahahahaha

DIRECTV is the nation's leading digital satellite television service provider with more than 11.4 million customers. DIRECTV and the Cyclone Design logo are registered trademarks of DIRECTV, Inc., a unit of Hughes Electronics Corporation. HUGHES is the world's leading provider of digital television entertainment, broadband services, satellite-based private business networks, and global video and data broadcasting. The earnings of HUGHES, a unit of General Motors Corporation, are used to calculate the earnings attributable to the General Motors Class H common stock (NYSE: GMH).

You think Direct TV makes it's $$ from PPV boxing ?

I'm just getting warmed up dude ... how much more ammo you got ?
BRING IT ON !!

NEXT !!

Are you as stupid as you seem to be? What does directtv have to do with online porn? Maybe you should actually read something before you start ridiculing other people.

[Mister X]

Originally posted by 1000facials
Hey Junior X :

You'd better sit down for this one.

Take a d-e-e-p breath, and CLICK HERE

Hey cumqueen:

Did you bother to even read the article? They said that the ENTIRE porn business is 10 billion a year and they don't even get into online porn. The article is about cable and ppv.

[Mister X]

Originally posted by NetRodent
There are publically traded companies in online porn. For example, NOOF and Digital Rooster. While they are public they can hardly be considered "big business".

Exactly the point I was making.

[1000facials]

Originally posted by Mister X
Are you as stupid as you seem to be? What does directtv have to do with online porn?

And you have the nerve to call me stupid ?!?

hahaha

have a nice day dude ... I am sorry I picked on you.

This fight is like the SPECIAL OLYMPICS ... even if you were to win, you're still fucking retarded !

[Mister X]

Originally posted by 1000facials

Well to be very politically incorrect, I guess neither of you have tried to steal a dollar from a wealthy Jew ?

Oh I see. Online porn is controlled by the same wealthy jews tha control Hollywood and the world banking establishment? I really didn't know that.

But to instantly discredit ideals that don't match your own, is a natural reaction by anybody, so I do not hold you at fault.

Ummm. So exactly who was discrediting somebody else's ideals anyway?

Now before either of you go getting your panties in a knot, I am not claiming to be superior to you, nor am I in any better social class ... I am exactly same as the rest of you. I just think that the attidude of thinking that us PPL on these chat boards RUN the industry, or any sizable portion of it, is totally ABSURD !!! we are small fish

Okay you lost me again. You keep saying "we" are all small fish and talking about message boards. But at the same time you pretend to have all this inside info on Big Business and Wealthy Jews controlling porn. And you persist in talking about whether or not people on messageboards control more than 5% of something. YOU are the only one here to even mention a message board.

I really suggest you get a frigging clue before you start flaming and insulting someone on topics that haven't even been commented on. You make yourself look like a fool. The only person you are arguing with is yourself because you have made not one comment that is even relevant to this thread. I suppose in your own mind you are conducting a brilliant debate and making a lot of witty and insightful comments. Maybe you should see a doctor about that.

[1000facials]

Is that all you have in you ?!?

You disappoint me Stewart

NEXT ...