"Detainees" in Cuba

Evil Chris · 08-28-2003, 09:45 AM

US forces in Cuba are very clear that they do not label their Taliban and Afghan detainees as "prisoners"... Which is exactly what they are.

See... if they were "prisoners", then they would have all the rights the Geneva Convention outlines. Which they don't.

Funny though how Rumsfeld kept going on about the Geneva Convention during the Iraq war when US maintenance troops were being held captive by Iraqi forces.

What if the Iraqi forces decided to use the word "detainees" as well?

gunner · 08-28-2003, 02:02 PM

It is my understanding, someone correct me if I'm wrong, that by the laws of the UN blue book, a detainee is someone held who has yet to be convicted of an offense. You cannot be a prisoner unless you are convicted. Therefore, the Taliban and Afghan fighters are detainees until tried and convicted.

Rest assured, we're giving them all the comforts of home, and they are being treated humanely. With Amnesty International and the Human Rights Watch group, our tropps couldn't afford to let a "detainee" sneeze without offering a tissue

Evil Chris · 08-28-2003, 02:55 PM

I have no doubt the detainees are eating enough and being treated as fair as possible under the circumstances.

Several of the US Forces staff in Guantanamo Bay are quoted as saying they are "respecting the spirit of the Geneva Convention". Believe me, I do not condone any of their behavior or alleged crimes, but aren't they entitled to a speedy trial? The majority of them are being held in 6x8 cells. They only get out of that cell once every 48 hours for 1 hour.

emmanuelle · 08-28-2003, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gunner

Rest assured, we're giving them all the comforts of home, and they are being treated humanely. With Amnesty International and the Human Rights Watch group, our tropps couldn't afford to let a "detainee" sneeze without offering a tissue

Amnesty International doesn't seem to feel the same way:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr510542002

Ronaldo · 08-28-2003, 04:00 PM

One of my biggest pet peeves about society today, is naturally brought on by the lawyers.

Forgetting about the rights of the victims.

When someone is killed, it is standard practice today to bring out all the trashy history of the victim while the accused stands free from all of his past indiscretions. Case in point-Robert Chambers.

Our prisoners today LIVE in their own little society in prison that has their own laws and restrictions. They are however ALIVE. Unlike the victims to whom they played judge, jury and executioner.

They have all the rights they deserve just by being alive. Aw shucks, they have to go to bed by 10 and eat when they're told. And play when and where they're told. The bottom line, is they're alive and you're loved one isn't. As an added bonus the victims families have the "right" to pay taxes that feed the person who killed their loved one.

Every time I see those planes crashing into the WTC, my thoughts are about the passengers who have been sentenced to death. Their last thoughts about their children, spouses and parents, none of whom they'll ever hug or talk to again. How horrifying their last few minutes must have been.

Then I think about the hijackers, on their knees praying to Allah. Their last few moments of life? Horrifying? Hardly. Nope, joyous. Knowing they've successfully killed innocent Americans. I think of the others who planned it, also on their knees, praying to Allah and laughing at the horrifying event.

Feel sorry for and pity those fuckers held in captivity at Gitmo if you like. I feel sorry for the 3000 victims and their families who are still paying for the person who killed their loved one to eat.

I'm not one to tell others what to think or what to do. I AM however one to voice my opinion. Living in a semi-free country allows me that privledge. For the time being anyways.

Instead of feeling sorry for our prisoners and being an advocate for their rights, I feel sorry for our homeless. They haven't commited a crime and yet they have less rights and privledges than our criminals today.

While I'm not an advocate for the homeless, I don't usually just pass by them or brush them off. I hand them a little money. Then I think to myself, "Thanks for at least trying to live honestly in our society without harming anyone. Oh, and Y'know, you'd have a nice warm place to sleep tonight and 3 square meals a day for the rest of your life if you just put a bullet through someone's head."

pornodoggy · 08-28-2003, 04:51 PM

Oh, gawdamitey ... a semi-free country? Blahblahblah. Nice little touch, that "on their knees praying to Allah." Pat Robertson would eat that shit up.

There are lots of nice places in the world where people accused of a crime - and that's all these folks in Cuba are - by the government don't have all those pesky rights. North Korea, mainland Cuba, mainland China ... is that what we want to become?

President Bush and Reverend-General Ashchrist even want to send American citizens overseas to Gitmo if they don't think they can win a case here. Note I did not say "get a fair trial."

Recognize these words?

Quote:

For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

Just a hint ... it was another imperial George.

I have no overwhelming pity for the enemies of my country - but I have a deep and abiding respect for the principles upon which it is built. Quite frankly, not all the enemies of my country are in cages (cells) in Gitmo - some of them are in Armani, using fearmonger tactics to further another agenda entirely.

emmanuelle · 08-28-2003, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ronaldo

Feel sorry for and pity those fuckers held in captivity at Gitmo if you like. I feel sorry for the 3000 victims and their families who are still paying for the person who killed their loved one to eat.

If your skin were brown, and it was your son or brother being held indefinitely without charges, you might feel differently also.

gunner · 08-28-2003, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by emmanuelle
Amnesty International doesn't seem to feel the same way:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr510542002

Amnesty International would complain if we were housing them all at Mandalay Bay in Penthouse suites. I see the article now, "the detainees are ordering jelly toast with their breakfast room service and often times the toast arrives plain, without the jelly flavor of their choice!"

dyonisus · 08-29-2003, 12:55 PM

I understand the reason the US is detaining these people, what their counterparts did was absolutely horrible and unforgivable! The US wants retribution.

I do not believe though that the US is innocent. Not the people mind you, the politics. I have said this before and stand by it, when you have a foreign policy that tries to dictate how the rest of the world is run, you can expect flack. Just as the US seeks revenge for the atrocities of 9/11 so do other men and other countries for the way the US interferes in their affiars.

No I am not saying 2 wrongs make it ok, what I am saying is this is a sign of humanity. Violence begets violence and war begets war, whether sanctioned or an extremist group declaring it, this is what you get when you leave the affiars of the world up to gun toting mad men US or non US!!!

saus · 08-29-2003, 05:08 PM

Only good Terrorist is a dead Terrorist.
I'm not shedding too many tears, these detainees are eating & living a lot better than they were before sleeping outside and eating on occasion while deftly planning to blow up innocent civilians.

Let's keep something in mind, these aren't soldiers, they didn't fight under a flag or in an organized military, they are ennemy combatants, civilians who have taken up illegal arms to maim & murder innocent people.

civilians in afg, women & children were routinely rounded up, tortured, raped, beaten and had all their rights stripped under the force of dictatorship, weapons & intimidation in a place where there was no police & no justice - just fundamentalist islamic maniacs who ruled by force & terror at everyone elses expense! Let's worry about the innocent people starving all over the world, or dying of aids or lack of clean water, that's my opinion.

Those people being detained happen to believe we should all be DRAWN & QUARTERED for what we do for a living btw, no exceptions.

My skin happens to be brown and I am middle eastern, but you won't find me in cuba, not unless they need firing squad volunteers.

pornodoggy · 08-29-2003, 05:45 PM

Wait a minute.

There is a great big difference between supporting the terrorists and not being comfortable with the whole concept behind holding the detainees in Cuba. I feel sorry for anyone who is unable to understand that; IMHO folks like that have the makings of a good Taliban or jihadist.

The Bush Administration SAYS all the detainees in Cuba are enemy combatants. Okay ... in this society they have the burden of proving it, and we have a system set up to do that. In this system the Executive does not get to make the final decision about things like that. Saddam didn't have that problem, the Taliban didn't have that problem, the North Koreans don't have that problem.

I seriously think that this is a dangerous precedent to be set.

pornodoggy · 08-29-2003, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gunner
Amnesty International would complain if we were housing them all at Mandalay Bay in Penthouse suites. I see the article now, "the detainees are ordering jelly toast with their breakfast room service and often times the toast arrives plain, without the jelly flavor of their choice!"

Funny how Amnesty International's view of Iraq and North Korea is so much superior to their view of the U.S.

Danny · 08-29-2003, 10:05 PM

These guys were fighting for their beliefs, which is no different than fighting for your country. The average "Taliban soldier" has no clue nor concept of the politics behind the fight, and should be treated as valid POWs, and not "detainees".

The point isn't how well they are or aren't being treated, but that they are sitting in a legal limbo, with no rights at all. Even American POWs during the "Vietnam Police Action" (the US said it wasn't a war) had an understanding of their rights under the Geneva Convention.

What is being done to the Muslim conscripts is just plain wrong. We may not agree with their beliefs, but we should treat them as honourable combatants as is their due.

Evil Chris · 08-30-2003, 09:28 AM

I agree Danny, however I'm not sure I would call them "honourable combatants" no matter how ignorant they may be of the final goal of their superiors.

What bothers me is the double-standard. What's good for one prisoner of war isn't good for another because one side has decided to reinvent the definition of the conflict.

iroc409 · 08-30-2003, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gunner
Amnesty International would complain if we were housing them all at Mandalay Bay in Penthouse suites. I see the article now, "the detainees are ordering jelly toast with their breakfast room service and often times the toast arrives plain, without the jelly flavor of their choice!"

i noticed that as well. well said.

Danny · 08-30-2003, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Evil Chris
I agree Danny, however I'm not sure I would call them "honourable combatants" no matter how ignorant they may be of the final goal of their superiors.

What bothers me is the double-standard. What's good for one prisoner of war isn't good for another because one side has decided to reinvent the definition of the conflict.

I agree fully Chris, as for "Honourable Combatants", just a little joke ;>

As someone who has never been involved in the Armed Forces, I can only talk about what I see in the media. Those that have been involved in the Military carry much more weight in discussions such as these.

saus · 08-30-2003, 04:26 PM

Unfortunately for the Taliban & al-queda, they do not even meet the standards requisite to be called war criminals. Tyranical regimes are not a democracy and don't follow the rules of international law, they were not elected they took power by force and crimes against humanity. Their government only recognized by two countries - Saudi Arabia & pakistan, a far cry from the 300+ some countries in the world.

"Under Article 4 of the Geneva Convention Taliban detainees are not entitled to POW status. To qualify as POWs under Article 4, Al Qaeda and Talilban detainees would have to have satisfied four conditions: they would have to be part of a military hierarchy; they would have to have worn uniforms or other distinctive signs visible at a distance; they would have to have carried arms openly: and they would have to have conducted their military operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war."

These detainees or unlawful combatants strike out on all 4 of those requisites! If detaining those people saves even one innocent life so be it, never mind the lives of the ACTUAL soldiers being put at risk to defend the rest of us 'non combatants' from the mass nuclear/chemical destruction these people believe is fully justified for us!

Taking up an illegally obtained weapons to kill for your beliefs, or strapping on explosives, or flying a hijacked plane into a building.. these things don't make you a soldier, anyone can strap on explosives & kill women and children, it makes one a mass murderer. Specifically targetting the innocent with weapons for the SOLE purpose of causing fear, death & terror is an absolute violation of the laws and customs of war as well as an immediate forfeiture of ones rights as a soldier by any standard.

How an argument can be made that these detainees don't fall under classification of terrorists is beyond me.. They are not POW's, they don't meet the requirements by any stretch, they don't deserve the accorded rights.

Terrorism - "The UNLAWFUL use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."

What about the rights of the thousands upon thousands of innocent people they have murdered? and of their families and friends? and the rights of the innocent people they will gladly murder? fuck these detainees, action without consequence!?

- Please excuse me, i'm tired of workin today, I'm going to go empty all our bank accounts, after all why not.. I believe I have a right to spend your personal finances, and I'm taking up a machine gun and murdering a few tellers to enforce that belief.. Sorry, just funding my own personal war for the country of 'SAUS' which I have proclaimed and there's nothing you can do about it, because amnesty international, which is nothing more than a bunch of humanitarians with a mailed home business card that has absolutely zero legal authority anywhere on the planet about anything whatsoever at all.. says I can, because it would be wrong to violate my non-existant rights to do anything about it.

If captured in this endeavour, i will state my rank & serial number in the army of SAUS, as accorded to me by my pow rights and that's it, sorry I spent all your money, nothing you can do about it. In fact you are not allowed to interrogate me at all. How do you feel about according rights that don't belong to me now? And if i use Islam to convice a few hundred thousand idiots that my cause is worth murdering for does that make me any different in ANY way from bin laden or the taliban!? After all, I believe it's right & fair, irrespective of your rights.