Mailers (spam?).... has the bottom dropped out? - Page 2

Brad Mitchell · 12-16-2002, 04:22 PM

Definitely a good thread!

It truly does not matter very much if your list is opt-in or outright spam. Obviously, one that is opt-in will receive far less complaints but that is no protection.

Generally speaking, hosting companies have a certain threshold for spam complaints that go to their upstream bandwidth provider. The more bandwidth a host purchases, the more complaints a network might accept. When I say network I mean the actual connectivity from companies like Verio, Level3, Qwest, Sprint, Global Crossing, etc.

I know on Verio, the network that I am on, people used to be able to pay extra for the privledge of spamming. I have never been involved in it but have had friends that were spammers and they paid upwards of 10x the market rate for bandwidth so that they would be allowed to spam.

However, Verio and some other networks have cut off major spamming operations. Some of you might have noticed that a few adult hosting companies are no longer on their network and now you know why.

What I find totally obnoxious is SpamCop. These motherfuckers are a terrible nuisance. They don't even care if it was an opt-in list. As a hosting company, I sometimes get complaints from them when my customers do their small mailings. They demand a response and don't even give you the option to say that it was a legitimate mailing.

That's my 2 cents..

Brad

MarkTiarra · 12-16-2002, 04:24 PM

ORIGIN OF THE WORD "SPAM" (in relation to Net abuse):

http://www.templetons.com/brad/spamterm.html

twinkley · 12-16-2002, 04:24 PM

Aria,

Only 75-100?? You are doing goood!

My real email to spam ratio is at about 300:1 right now.

Support email for our sites is way worse - closer to a 500:1 ratio

terrible...

twinkley

RedShoe · 12-16-2002, 04:25 PM

All I know is that I get at least .. AT LEAST.. 200 spam emails a day. I don't read a single one.

I check my mail, wait for all of them to download, select them all and delete them all. I only check it so my server doesn't overload with email.

I had to set up a yahoo account, that no one but my wife and some family and only a few friends know about. I'm about a year into it, and I may have had one or two yahoo spams but that was about it.

I fuckin' hate email now. I check my fucked up accounts about every other day, and my yahoo chimes in when I get an email so I only check that when it notifies me.

There have been times when I will go thru all my shit mail and remove my name off thier lists, but it doesn't matter. My addresses have been going around for so long now I must be one some CD's and lists that get traded daily.

I hate spam. I hate email. I think all spammers should be put to death. No punchline, no jokes, I think they should all die. I think everyone in their families should get cancer and die. Their offspring, fuck 'em... ALL DEAD. I want thier houses burned to the ground. Their dogs, DEAD!!!

That said... if it still makes money.. hook me up, I want a piece of that pie. Anyone know where I can get a few lists and some bulletproof hosting? I think this "Dick-B-Bigger" shit really works, and I want to sell it to the entire world!!! MUAHAHAHAHA

shok · 12-16-2002, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ARiA

PS. anyone know why they call it spam instead of sardines or vienna sausage??

Vienna sausages, these things have to be the most vile thing ever put on earth. Just looking at that jelly layer on top makes me shiver and gives me the chills.
Is it even meat? Or just parts of this and that scraped off the floor and grinded into tiny weeners?

RedShoe · 12-16-2002, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shok
Vienna sausages, these things have to be the most vile thing ever put on earth. Just looking at that jelly layer on top makes me shiver and gives me the chills.
Is it even meat? Or just parts of this and that scraped off the floor and grinded into tiny weeners?

Don't knock it, 'til you try it.
Same as pussy. Some of it looks pretty nasty, but you still put your tongue in there.

Ok, try this. (It will convert you) Get yourself a can of Vienna sausages, and slice them from top to bottom in half. Then lay them on a slice of bread. You should have just enough to fit on a single slice of bread with maybe just one slice left over. Place another piece of bread on top, to create a Vienna Sausage sandwich. You can add toppings, but I think a V.S. sandwich taste perfect plain.

Eat it. MMMMmmmmm Vienna Suasage Sandwich.....

DragonKing · 12-16-2002, 04:46 PM

Well,
I've got alot to say on this great thread so bare with me

First off, to answer Aria's question as to how spam got it's name,
it comes from a Monty Python skit where the word "Spam" is repeated over and over to the point of total annoyance - as does email Spam.

That's the best explanation i've heard so far anyway.

As far as the bottom dropping out , it's inevitable for it to become less profitable then it once was , expecially now since Hotmail, Yahho and MSN are putting in really strcit filters. Aol was always hard to get into unless you had some accounts to waste but there are ways around that as well.

What's happening now is, people are using their original clean lists to the point that they no longer can convert a free giveaway and then they are reselling them tenfold. This has been happening for a long time now and these lists are outmumbering the new fresh ones. Plus anyone with a real good clean list is hording them until theyare worthless at which point they selll for a nice proffit.

Personally I wouldn'y buy a list from anyone for any price because you dont know where its been or what kind of heat comes from it.
Emailing is still a great source of fast sizeable income if the right products are marketed.

I was the originator (in my best Al Gore impression) of mailing out Ebay Secrets and Build Your Own Website amongst others and now, everyone and their mother's have their own rippoff or mockup. Do i still mail mine? no. I am constantly creating new products that remain sellable no matter how bad a list is.

It's like anything else in this biz, run a clean ship, opt in your email list and make sure they have a way to opt out. There are a few fortune 500 mainstream companies still proffiting from mailings. RedVNetwork, one of the largest mail out my products as well as others, never having one sinngle product of their own, yet they have the sweetest opt in lists you can imagine!!

I personally stay away from mailing porn sites. Their are too many chances to offend even an double opt in and get heat from it.
It will be interesting though to see how fast emailers come up with solutions for the new spam blockers. I' sure it will happen..it's just a matter of time.

sherie · 12-16-2002, 04:53 PM

I figure I get just as much spam/junk mail in my mail box. It's unsolicited just the same as the 1 million spam emails that I get in my hotmail account. Either way, it's going to be around forever, or it will come to a sudden end.

I am more pissed with all of the wasted paper in the mail box, or at that dumbass that can't find the mail box and leaves it outside to rot in the snow....(obviously not as pissed that children are recieving these emails, because some ass has not done his/her homework)

Spamcop, now who the hell gives them the right to do what they do? A pain in the ass they are. IMO

ElvisManson · 12-16-2002, 04:54 PM

There have been a lot of good points made already in this thread...both Zebra and sykkboy have hit the nauil on the head.

Speaking from personal experince, with Python running naughtymail, I can tell you that we get spam AND spam cop complaints from people that have opt'd-inthrough the double opt in process.

With a list as large as our we queue up mailers 3 days in advance and people that have opted out still get mailer from us for a few days. This is stated in very explicit terms during the opy-out process...but we get complaints anyway...and I love that spamcop has the tendency to mutiply ( exponentially I think sometimes) the number of complaints they send out.

I run the Dollar Machine affiliate program for Python take a LOT of double opt in mailer traffic, quite a bit of it from people who post here and i know that they legitimately collect their e-mails through a double opt-in process...but still get up to 10 spam cop complaints a day when they mail the list to my sites.

Do I treat them as spammers?....Hell no.

As Zebra mentioned the line between spam, single, double and triple opt-in e-mails gets very blurry as defined by the people receining the mail.

In the end it boils down to a trust issue for me.

And from what i have seen based on our mailing operations ( double opt-in) there has been no decrease in profitability....but we have had to constantly allow our business model to change with what our clients and the people receiving our mailings want.

ARiA · 12-16-2002, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MarkTiarra
ORIGIN OF THE WORD "SPAM" (in relation to Net abuse):

http://www.templetons.com/brad/spamterm.html

Thanks! there is alot of neat history/info there...
and now I know

Tam · 12-16-2002, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NOTR
E-mail marketing or SPAM, sells and there's no doubt about it.

I have been in and around the "shady" part of the business for well over 3 years and I haven't seen a drop in productivity. What I have seen is every kid on the block jumping onboard thinking it's a goldmine.

Abusing other people’s resources, exploiting relays etc... You want to mail and keep it legitimate then you should honour your removes, mail through your own server and keep it as clean as possible.

I have my fingers in a few things and spam is one of the most profitable, it's a part of business and we have to live with it.

I couldn't have said it better myself, Notr..... honestly. I have been on the HOSTING end of this and the only complaints we would get that came directly to us were those people who didn't honor the removes and remove them and instead keep hammering them with it.

Mailings are VERY profitable, if it is done right and with as much respect as you can do it with. If someone who opted-in wants to opt-out, then respect that. Those who don't mind it won't complain and you can weed out the ones that don't want it. I don't mind a little spam sometimes, it's part of it, same as junk mail in my mailbox out in the yard.... but when I ask to be removed from a list and am not taken off, I get REALLY nasty about it and could frankly give two shits who the person is that is spamming me...... if they don't respect my wishes then I show them no respect.

Bottom line is that it is VERY profitable...... but do it reasonably like Notr says here. Abuse it and lose it I always say.

Tobbe · 12-16-2002, 07:28 PM

Hello chris!
i dont think i can say to much in this thread. because i have never been involved to this.. but my friend does some kind of "spamming" and he tells me all the time that its getting more bad every day!

so i guess it will be less and less money in this. Yes.

Greetings Tobbe.
See ya all more in a few weeks.!!!
very busy!

krosh · 12-16-2002, 08:28 PM

So i sat here and i read all the posts...hmmmmmm!

Here is my 2 cents worth. I have been involved and am actively involved in dealing with email lists. Anyone that says profitability has gone down is VERY wrong.

The big problem has been mentioned several times here. Active remove lists. the people that purely sapm have not a clue how to manage an email list. You must remove people that want to be removed and NEVER mail them again. We as internet users think that spam is worthless casue we never would buy anything that is being advertised, but when one of my campaigns makes $11k in one day, i can't say that it is not performing.

single opt-in double-opt in, triple opt-in..all this means is that the surfer agreed to see YOUR stuff. They will still complain, not as much as a list that you buy on those get rich quick programs on the net ( 60 Million email addys for a $1

) but they will complain.
I think it is not fair to say that we as email marketers can not send mail.

As mentioned here before, Junk mail in the mail box at my house gets more crap that I never asked for than anywhere else. Why is it fair for those people to advertise and not for email guys??? i'll tell you why!

Cause the government doesn't make any money off emails. SO they are going to want to step in. Believe me when i say this, spamcop is a good thing. It is in place to show the government that the internet can police itself and it does not need a government helping hand.

In closing, as an email marketer, remember to remove people that don't want to see the crap you are selling, and remember that you can make more money off surfers in a small list that opens compared to using all the resources necessary to mail say 20Million emails that are going to bounce and cpmplain, not to mention the amount of bandwidth that's necessary o mail a list like that.

And that's all i got to say about that .

TDF · 12-16-2002, 09:54 PM

well my take on this is have your own email remote box. This seems to work soo much better than just buying some emails that will get you in trouble. Not only that,but we only associate with ethnic sites so anyone who sees an email from us it is in our niche area. I think site reputation and surfer comfort has a lot to do with it also

-=HUNGRYMAN=- · 12-16-2002, 10:12 PM

Spam .... Mmmmmmmmm !!!!

Evil Chris · 12-16-2002, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by krosh
Cause the government doesn't make any money off emails. SO they are going to want to step in. Believe me when i say this, spamcop is a good thing. It is in place to show the government that the internet can police itself and it does not need a government helping hand.

Do you really think that the government cares whether or not the internet is able to police itself? I don't. If it makes money, and there is a way to tax it, then the government will do that. But I'm a bit off topic.

While I agree that email marketing isn't necessarily wrong if executed properly, it irks me to get spam complaints from clean lists due to the reasons some people outlined above. The poor practices of some are ruining the above-board practices of many others.

DragonKing · 12-16-2002, 10:56 PM

here is something to chew on:
http://www.computerworld.com/governm...,76821,00.html

XxXotic · 12-17-2002, 10:18 AM

spam is spam no matter how ya look at it, no matter what form it takes it's still spam. I don't send out mailers, not even to the members of my resource site, who when signing up, opt-in to receive one. It's just not worth the hassle to me or worth the risk should someone choose to forward me to spamcop or something because they don't remember signing up to my site.

As for whether or not i'd ever buy a list to do it with, no. anyone with an email extraction bot can make a list of 5million email addresses and claim they opted in 15 times, how can you prove they did or didn't? that's the problem behind buying these opted email lists, can't really prove they did or didn't opt in. Last thing anyone in this biz needs is heat for spamming, this industry is scrutinized enough as it is. Why add to the fire?

Tafkap · 12-17-2002, 10:58 AM

I use to send lots of mass-mailings to my partners about new infos, websites, promo stuff or just to say hi!...

But in the subject line, i try to write something "personal" to them, and let them know it comes from their sponsor... and it ain't no spam...

Never received any complaints for the moment but it's true Spam sucks...

heqdvd · 12-17-2002, 01:36 PM

If you go to message rules in outlook6,

and set a few custom ones, takes 3 mins and I have some already set up if any one needs...

i can block about 75% of all the spam.

i send out promo e-mails, but always have a real, simply unsubscribe line and really delete people from lists i make. but the lists i make are all from addresses posted on-line

heqdvd · 12-17-2002, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MarkTiarra
ORIGIN OF THE WORD "SPAM" (in relation to Net abuse):

http://www.templetons.com/brad/spamterm.html

That's a good info quote...

Evil Chris · 12-17-2002, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DragonKing
here is something to chew on:
http://www.computerworld.com/governm...,76821,00.html

DK... Maybe I'm in left field, but isn't 7 million just a drop in the pond when looking at the big picture here?

I see a lot of posts saying that "targetted email marketing" is not only still effective, but still very profitable, and will continue to be so. I have my doubts.

But I don't want to confuse mailing to opted in's versus mailing to members of a specific service. For example, when I send out the xnations newsletter twice a month, I am not selling anything. I am simply passing on information about a service to which the addressee uses. There is a big difference.

DragonKing · 12-17-2002, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Evil Chris
DK... Maybe I'm in left field, but isn't 7 million just a drop in the pond when looking at the big picture here?

I see a lot of posts saying that "targetted email marketing" is not only still effective, but still very profitable, and will continue to be so. I have my doubts.

But I don't want to confuse mailing to opted in's versus mailing to members of a specific service. For example, when I send out the xnations newsletter twice a month, I am not selling anything. I am simply passing on information about a service to which the addressee uses. There is a big difference.

---------------
Ahhh,
with all do respect my friend,
I think I noticed mention of sponsors in your newsletters.
A newsletter is just a different way of cooking spam.
More palitable I guess

Look at my sig? subliminal spam?

Evil Chris · 12-17-2002, 05:26 PM

True enough... Sponsors pay for exposure in such things, and if you were a sponsor, you'd expect it too.

Yours isn't as subliminal as it is clever.... LOL
(did you forge Aly's signature?) haha

RMS · 12-18-2002, 10:21 AM

It doesnt exist yet.. but when it does.. I will be in line to sign up on day 1.

Cooked Spam

I didn't see this posted in this thread... sorry if it's a repeat.

heqdvd · 12-18-2002, 10:25 AM

Good article.

(lots of readers here)

like this:

"pushing low mortgage rates and anatomic enhancements by e-mail,"

isn't it always a variation of one of those!

Evil Chris · 12-19-2002, 05:51 PM

I'll be on http://www.talkhardradio.com/ today at 5pm eastern talking about this if you have time to tune in and listen.
Cheers.... Chris

heqdvd · 12-19-2002, 08:29 PM

Hey there just got back in and missed that one,

is it every thursday? the radio show?

Hashishan · 12-19-2002, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ARiA

PS. anyone know why they call it spam instead of sardines or vienna sausage??

perhaps because there isnt much meat in spam

Mister X · 12-20-2002, 01:46 AM

Okay here's my question. Can you actually buy a list of double opt in addies and still say that it's opted in? Maybe I missed a previous post explaining this. I've heard several different opinions on this. It seems obvious that an opt in to one list probably isn't valid for anything except that original list. Am I missing something here? And exactly how do you keep records to prove that these people opted in in the first place in case you need to produce the evidence some day?