Mailers (spam?).... has the bottom dropped out?

[Evil Chris]

Did you ever send out a mailing to promote another website? Maybe your own site... maybe a site for someone else's program to which you have a traffic agreement, or maybe just purely for profit to a site that pays you well?

Most of us can say we've been involved in this sort of thing, and when asked, we all say "yeah, my list is double opt-in, triple opt-in..."

Does it matter anymore if your list is double or triple opt-in? And how do you know for sure, unless you have collected the emails yourself from an opt-in situation that you are in total control of?

The reason I ask, is because it seems that no matter how clean we think our mailing lists are, they are getting more problematic (spam complaints, de-activated accounts, etc..) and yes... they are getting much less profitable.

So how much longer will spam remain profitable? Even if you say your list contains emails of people who "asked to receive this material" that still doesn't mean that they can change their mind and suddenly report you to whoever or whatever ISP will give you the most grief.

Here's an article that predicts Spam Expected to Outnumber Non-Spam in the very near future:
http://www.atnewyork.com/news/article.php/1555831

And if you don't think the penalties for spamming are bad... think again and read any one of the articles contained on this page:
http://www.internetnews.com/index.php/4491

[Bree]

Great Thread!!

I dunno who, but one of the boards I signed up with added me to a spam list... and now my netpond email is getting spam and that has never happened before. it's a real pain..

I know for a FACT that I never agreed to get more spam.. I'm careful about the forms that I fill out.. at least I should know better..

But shame on the board that sold my address!!

[StuartD]

Hmm... tough call.
I don't have much of a problem with spam personally.

It's that spam you get in hotmail that bugs me... the ones that have the subject "hey, here's the information you asked for" and it's selling penis englargement or viagra or something.

My thoughts are... if you have to trick someone into reading your spam, they probably don't really want it!!


As for spam coming from adult webmasters... I don't know. I think porn people have it rough... because every one wants porn, but no one will admit it, so they get all emberrassed and mad if it shows up in their in box.

At the same time though... I really hate it when I go somewhere, sign up, and suddenly have spams and junk mail from all 4 corners of the globe. Selling my email address to people, just to make a few cents is so not cool. If I wanted penis enlargement pills, I'd go to my doctor.

[sonomasnap]

I have serious doubts about the effectiveness of adult email marketing. Unless you own the list and are marketing to MEMBERS, I think it is largely a waste of money.

[Phoenix]

Wow looks like Direct marketing may have to adapt to survive and prosper amid all the new regulations which are sure to be enforced.

Although it does look more like they are focusing on the people who are actually ripping people off. some mailers have their own agenda and they are screwing themselves over...i still think that if you are receiving mass volumes of "unsolicited email" you have signed on somewhere as i have accounts which dont receive any

I believe that most people in our industry offer a real and enjoyable service/product which the consumer enjoys.

I hope that by policing ourselves we can set our industry apart and not get lumped in with the flagrant misleading of the consumer.

[NOTR]

E-mail marketing or SPAM, sells and there's no doubt about it.

I have been in and around the "shady" part of the business for well over 3 years and I haven't seen a drop in productivity. What I have seen is every kid on the block jumping onboard thinking it's a goldmine.

Abusing other people’s resources, exploiting relays etc... You want to mail and keep it legitimate then you should honour your removes, mail through your own server and keep it as clean as possible.

I have my fingers in a few things and spam is one of the most profitable, it's a part of business and we have to live with it.

[Cathedra]

Good point, I agree that any kind of spam is spam, and personally speaking the few times I have actually clicked on a promotional email was either out of astonishment, or curiosity, but it never led me to purchase or sign up to anything.

[Ronaldo]

Chris,

We send out a weekly newsletter with all of our content updates. Our opt out is right at the top of the page, so it's the first thing you see. That appears to be the most important thing with spam complaints. As soon as someone hits that button, I MANUALLY remove them from our mailing list so no mistakes are made.

On several occasions we have been approached to BUY more emails or to advertise for someone else IN our newsletter. We simply refuse this every time. Our newsletter is strictly for our promotional purposes and ONLY goes out to our past and present clients.

To the best of my knowledge, we haven't received any spam complaints. (Since I've been with Xamo )

I personally get about 100 spam emails per day. If I have the time I'll unsubscribe from them, but on most days I don't. The ones that annoy me are the ones that ask you to reply and then they bounce back with an unknown mailbox. Those fuckers should die.

Ron

[PMGames]

I have not really ever put together an organized optin mailing program so I can't comment about that.

What I do know is when I signup myself for certain things to see what they are about and then regret that I did because it never opt's you out of their program even their fake opt out page, etc.

I have made it a habit as well to use alias e-mails for certain sites so I can see how they sell and resell my information to others as well.

I might sign up for x site, so I will use x as my username@mywebsite.com that helps me in tracking since I don't allow any e-mail to bounce.


I have been caught up on the never ending opt out on naughtymail like forever, so if anyone knows any tricks with them please let me know. lol.

[bryany]

Well there sure are a lot more complaints going around, and now that people have the ability to send the email to a complaint department with just one click of a link (yahoo for example) more and more sites are going to be redflagged...

[Ronaldo]

Originally posted by PMGames
What I do know is when I signup myself for certain things to see what they are about and then regret that I did because it never opt's you out of their program even their fake opt out page, etc.

I have made it a habit as well to use alias e-mails for certain sites so I can see how they sell and resell my information to others as well.

Good point Paul, and one I forgot to mention.

We also REFUSE to trade or sell our mailing list as well.

[Special_K]

Chris...you have opened a touchy subject but one that is very important with the release of recent reports saying that in 2003 spam will be larger than regular (non-spam) email. We can thank a small handful of people for this. As our industry continues to mature it becomes more and more important to practice good business.

To answer your question Chris, yes, it matters if your list is double-opt in. It also matters how you treat that list. For example just because it is double or triple opt in does not give you the right to blow the snot out of this list whenever you want. Actually, it probably does, but that's just not good business in my mind. The emails on your list should be treated with the utmost respect. This means remove them if they want to be removed (don't add them to a remove list and swap/sell..again bad business)

Sure mailings are becoming less profitable, but you can maximize your list$ by being smart about how and when you send them. Things change, but double opt-in mailings will always be a part of doing business in the online world, just like TGPs, AVS, search engine optimization, etc.

Hell look at our conventions...setting up a booth and spending a fortune on flyers, parties, and models doesn't return the kind of revenue it once did. With the lower return one must be smarter thats all, and personally I think the industry needs a dose of ethics. Our industry will always be the 1st to be targeted (VISA, Acacia, obscenity etc) so conduct yourself according to the risk you want to be exposed to.

Do business with people/companies who practice good business...its simple.

word to your mommy!

K

[Kenny B]

I have a somewhat decent list only 250,000 addy's and I’ve done quite well promoting various programs. I can’t say it’s all double opt-in (90%opt-in), and I do get some complaints but I make sure to put my “disclaimer” and get very few spam cop complaints. Because most sponsors don’t accept spam I send an email to the company who I’m promoting prior to sending my mail and let them know it’s a double opt-in list and they may get a few complaints but it’s not spam. So far I have not been shut down from any partner plans but I have a small list compared to most. For the work that goes into sending a mailer it’s still profitable for me!

If any of you have a good program and don’t mind me pimping it out through my list drop me a line ken@vipmembers.net

[Sly]

I don't really have much to add... but the "direct marketing" that really drives me crazy is the ones that use something in the title that people would actually send me.

For example, "a new offer for your website". Well damn, I almost HAVE to read those. It actually COULD be about my website, even though it usually isn't.

It's frustrating to say the least, the trickery involved. I wouldn't mind it so much if the titles were "honest"... but let's get real, who's honest anymore?

[Bestat]

I also send out a montly newsletter about my content updates to clients that have purchased before and those that asked to be on the mailing list. I also have a double opt-in newsletter for surfers on Anime and Toons. I get minimal results from both. The remove link is promient (sp) on the email, and as of yet, I have never had a complaint. But I do as Ronaldo, and manage the list's myself, so I know that anyone asking to be removed is. I also NEVER utilize the lists for anything other than what they signed up for.

I think that getting out a global message is getting harder to do without ticking someone off, and I do believe that even when they opt-in for a list, most delete the email without reading it. As for receiving spam...seriously I get about 200 spams a day, 30% of those are adult and the rest mainstream.

[twinkley]

Hi Guys,

Funny this thread should be started since we just had this very problem pop-up. We have been sending double-opt-in mass mailers for well over 3 years now. Does it make a diff. whether it is double opt in or now when mailing? YES IT DOES.

There is a big difference in sending spam and doing a dedicated mailer to an opt-in list. It is impossible nowdays to send anything opt-in that you havent checked personally yourself and here is why.

We normally do NOT buy email addresses. Too much fraud involved and there is no way to check to make sure the people actually signed up for this. But, a couple of months ago we bought several million email addresses from someone we trusted in the industry. We were assured that all the lists were 100% clean and double opt in. So, we send this list to our own sites to check it and HOLY SHIT! We had SO MANY spam complaints our host threatened to shut us down. Sooo... that list got banned from being sent to. Unfortunately, it was NOT deleted,

Well, last week we decide we want to throw some decent traffic at this awesome program. We set up the mailer and send it out - unfortunately the BANNED list got sent to and once again we were dealing with quite a few spam complaints. (much less than before, but still quite a few) The program shut us down right away.

Luckily, I happen to be pretty tight with one of the guys in the company, so I have to go to him and beg and plead to get our account turned back on. How embarrassing. Now I know that we arent dirty spammers, but how bad does this look? If this had been someone mailing us, we would have shut them down too!

The fact of the matter is, unless you are collecting the email addresses yourself and sending something that confirms they want it, you are taking the risk of being labeled a spammer. Nobody likes spammers.

As far as profitability goes, I think that it will continue to go downhill until something can be done to clean up the ACTUAL spam in everyones mailbox - I know I lose emails that I ask for (newsletters and such) because I have SO MUCH spam, it all gets tossed.

I think in order to "prove" the member requested the email service, you will need to be able to prove they signed up for it - if you are doing double-optin you should be able to prove this through their confirmation making it almost impossible for them to say "I didnt ask for this"

twinkley

[AcidMaX]

Although I don't send spam, I do collect double opt-in e-mails from my own sites. With the software that I wrote, I collect things from the user when they single & double optin, like IP, timestamps, user-agent etc. This way if someone needs proof they have it. I typically use these e-mails for a 2nd attempt to get them to join my sites since I collected them from the site in the first place. I do not send e-mails and if someone asks to be removed...they are simply removed.

I do however know people who do this full time and make good money off of it. (Neighborhood of 200-300 signups day.) One actually furnished his house with things he received from affiliates he promoted. I think the thing that bothers me the most, is that most affiliate programs say they are against spam, but send it anyway or even hire people to send it for them, or turn a blind eye to it.

I also think e-mails can still be profitable if used properly. In many instances cheaters will use tools to pull e-mails off of message boards and other areas and use those instead of double-optin methods. I think most of it is that users are just getting smarter. Just as the "pros" like to signup for trials, then cancel, then signup again, then cancel. These people know how to get free porn, so they run around all the sites to get free porn in their e-mail and they do it to their hotmail accounts so wife-poo doesnt find out.

An now for Jerry Springers final thoughts

I think that if you run your optin campaign like some due (including me) where you are open and upfront with the people you send mail to about how to be removed from the list and you send it to people who double opted into your list, and treat them with respect, and don't send 3 e-mails a day for 3 months, you will have people respect that. I think anymore anyone who enters their e-mail address expects to get "spam", its how you deal with it that makes it better imho. The people who brutalize my inbox with e-mail I never requested 30 times a day with "I got a secret website" messages...should just be shot. And the bad thing about adult webmaster spam, is that most of these guys that do it, if you try to remove yourself, your e-mail doubles because now they know they have a keeper.

These are just my thoughts though.

Andy

[StuartD]

Ok... if someone does a "double optin" to what ever it is that a site is offering... and then gets emails from them... that's spam... requested spam.

But then that site goes and sells that list to some other site at a nice high price because it's "double opt-in" and therefore are qualified buyers.

But, that person didn't "double opt-in" for what that other site has. They didn't even single opt-in for that site to have their email address at all.
That makes it some spam that's kinda hard to swallow.

Sure it works, gets the job done... but whether or not it was opt-ed in 50 times, it's still an email that's being sent from someone that you never gave your email address to in the first place.

[shok]

Email marketing can be extremely profitable as alot of you know, which of course brings out all the uglys just like anything else.

Running the mailers for Wegcash/Join4free is a learning experience everyday. We have worked so hard for longevity in mailing by being up front and honest. If a user unsubs, they get unsubed. We try to keep the lines of communication open with companies like AOL etc. which is incredibly important. If someone complains that they got spammed, we can produce all information on that user.

It is getting harder and harder yes because you have so many using harvested lists and such and turning people off all together from email marketing. Im sure its only going to get worse and worse before it gets better.
I cant ever see email marketing going away though. Its an instant connection with a buyer, and some people actually do enjoy the daily newsletters and offers. The people that dont though, can really go out of their to let you know how much they hate you. They will go on and on and threaten you every way they can. I always love showing them all their join info after exchanges like that lol

[SykkBoy]

All of the major players in the early days made their fortunes with email traffic. Most won't admit it now though.

While spam traffic isn't as profitable as it used to be, it is still profitable. A good double opt-in list is some of the best quality traffic there is.

The biggest problem is that you have a lot of inexperienced guys buying those bullshit cdroms for $100 and spamming everyone on those cdroms (which most of those lists are several years old).

Can you really be sure someone mailing for you is using pure doubl opt-in emails? Nope, unless you've collected them yourself. You just have to trust the person doing your mailings.

If a mailer is sending you 100 signups a day and only a handful of complaints, are you going to get pissed about it? I know a couple mail guys who can send 200-300 signups per day. Would anyone openly turn that down if the complaint rate is 1%?

I think everyone needs to draw their own moral guidelines and stick with what THEY feel comfortable with.

I'm often asked if we accept email traffic and the answer is "yes". Does that mean we take spam? Not really. We take double opt-in email traffic and if someone can show how they collect the emails (for example via an email collection box) we will consider taking the single opt-in. We won't take harvested email traffic because it's too hard to tell who's on the other end, it causes more complaints and just isn't as good quality-wise. Each program has their own guidelines and policies regarding this. I don't knock those who take blatant spam anymore than I'd knock those who will take no mail traffic whatsoever.

Do I find spam annoying? yes, but I don't get as upset about it as most people do (or seem to). Do I find targeted email annoying? hell no. If I have certain likes and dislikes and someone emails me regarding a product or service that is related to what I like, I'm happy. Hey, I didn't have to search all over the fucking place to find this product.

I think the reason most people get pissed at spam (other than the 300+ emails )) is because they feel like their intelligence is being insulted if they are being marketed to. They feel like everyone will take them for a sucker if they...gasp...got marketed to. Hell, yeah, market to me. I'm not a sucker, but give me something that reflects my interestes and I'm a fucking buyer. These days I've made more purchases via email links than I have clicking on flashing, blinking, shiny banners....

[Special_K]

it just pisses me off to see a bunch of emails come in and then find out that its the same bloody mailing! If I am not going to click your ad the first time sending it to me 2 or 3 more times will not help! I have numerous emails coming into my inbox but it blows me away to see people not remove duplicates. Even if you sign up to a newsletter or service countless times using the same email address, you should only be recieving 1 notice per send.

My favorite spams are the ones from main stream companies that tell you that your site can be better optimized for search engine placement.

Oh reeeeaaalllllyyyyy......I actually took the time and phoned one of these companies and grilled them with questions re. link popularity, meta structure, changes at google etc...they weren't even in the league!

If you have a list, make sure you know a little about it! Marketing 101.

[CumSensei]

Personally I would never spam.

Ok so I might add a few links to my gallery aprove emails but thats it.

I do not think its fair to spam someone.

Thats it.

And it´s a bitch to end up at some damn list sold allover the place.

[Zebra]

To outsiders the line between double opt-in and straight spam is a fine one. I have seen so many complaints from people that I KNOW are legitimate double opt-ins yet still complain. Maybe a guy signed up for a 4free site on his wife's email account and she starts getting complaints and knows she did not sign up for anything and the husband SWEARS he didn't. So a complaint is sent even though there is a remove link. Many surfers have heard that remove links are a joke and just a way for spammers to confirm that email is active so they don't bother using it. Some hate spam enough to report it to Spam Cop or an ISP if they know how to look that up.
I don't think the productivity in mailings has decreased significantly, but I do think that the amount of complaints is rising for those who do mail. Hosts and sponsors are killing accounts for those who they do not know. I have hosts and sponsors who I use that know I am mailing legit addresses I have collected myself and not outright spamming. I haven't had an account closed yet and I am pretty sure any complaints I have had were few. Keeping in contact with those who may be affected by your mailing is a good way to protect yourself. Removing people who cancel is a definate must.
Some of the free email companies are getting aggressive with dealing with spam. Some of their measures may be overkill. Hotmail is now using software called Brightmail that is supposed to be stopping spam cold. I signed up for several 4free sites last week from various 4free programs and haven't received mailings to the Hotmail account I created to track them. I created a Yahoo account at the same time and DID receive mailings to that address. Hotmail makes up a huge chunk of the addresses of people that receive mailings. That income just got cut off. I expect we will see more software being developed that will kill spam AND legitimate mailings. Of course I am sure someone will come up with a way to get around those roadblocks. If they do, drop me a line

[twinkley]

Stuart,

You said " Ok... if someone does a "double optin" to what ever it is that a site is offering... and then gets emails from them... that's spam... requested spam." But that is the exact opposite of what spam is. Spam is the nick for UCE - UNSOLICITED commercial Email. By definition if someone signs up for it, its not spam. Spam is only getting commercial email you didnt ask for. Now technically that means if you email me about biz thats SPAM - but reality dictates its not. - its biz.

Shok - I really really need to talk to someone over at WEG about mailers - can you please have someone ICQ me - 72099798. Been trying to get ahold of jordan through RRRED but no avail

[Darin]

If you have your own double opt in. I don't see why you would get excessive spam complaints. As long as the person knows the message is coming from you and there are clear links to be removed.

Buying email lists is up in the air for sure, would stay away from that if you care about a long term program.

[StuartD]

Originally posted by twinkley
Stuart,

You said " Ok... if someone does a "double optin" to what ever it is that a site is offering... and then gets emails from them... that's spam... requested spam." But that is the exact opposite of what spam is. Spam is the nick for UCE - UNSOLICITED commercial Email. By definition if someone signs up for it, its not spam. Spam is only getting commercial email you didnt ask for. Now technically that means if you email me about biz thats SPAM - but reality dictates its not. - its biz.

I know, I'm just playing devil's advocate.
What a dictionary describes as spam, and what a person sitting at home describes as spam, can be two different things. Which is why people complain.

Like Darin said, if you send to your own double opt-in, there should be no reason for complaints. But there still are.

I for one don't think there should be either. You double opt-in, you there for are saying "send me junk mail"... you asked for it.

For the most part, if you double opt-in, I say too bad... so sad. You're getting what I send ya.

But if I get emails from someplace that I've never been to before, because that site that I double opt-in'ed to sold my addy, then I'd be ticked.

I could never sell someone's email address when I so totally am 100% against people selling mine. I couldn't bring myself to be that hypocritical or two faced. Just my opinion.

[twinkley]

Oh, same here.

I have at least 3 people weekly ask me to sell our lists. NO WAY! If you want to buy a mailer, im more than happy to help you, but I am not selling off someones info so you can do god-knows-what with it.

No thanks!

twinkley

[Zebra]

Many sites that collect emails have a line in their terms stating that they have the right to sell or trade any address they collect. But of course the surfer doesn't want to read the terms, he just wants to get his free porn. That is where a lot of the trouble with trading lists comes from. Most people who signup for free shit don't know who the hell the mailings are from anyway. They just think it is all spam, even the shit they signed up for. Just have to deal with it, it is nothing personal.

[MarkTiarra]

Ronaldo is doing it right from what his post says. Kudos.

Keep in mind the FTC isn't going after spam blindly - it's going after MISLEADING advertising and people misusing trademarked logos and such. For a long time email advertising hasn't followed the same rules of "truth in advertising" that every other facet of the sales world has had to follow.

My personal opinion about spam is that, while annoying, I'd rather get that then get paper junk mail which is using paper resources. That said, I did eventually close down a 5 year old email address that was my primary because I was getting upwards of 500 spam per day to it. I get bothered by emails that say I requested the information when I plainly didn't. Viagra ones are the best... I need something to SLOW DOWN my boner rate, not give me more! lol.

I actually have an email address on AOL that I set up for my son because I wanted the name for him when he got old enough to logon. I only ever logged on when I started the account then never touched it again. One day while using the swith screenname feature I saw it had an email. Went there and it was an adult spam. So either AOL sold addresses or it was more likely mined through some software hack. Either way that sucks.

If you buy email addresses that say they are opt in - who knows if the seller is being truthful. Even an honest guy may have bought addresses from someone he thought was honest to add to his list and then you buy from him and get crap addresses.

Anyway - do things like Ronaldo's post says and I doubt you'll face any legal peril.

[ARiA]

when I get into the office I usually have around 75-100 crap emails to deal with- talking toilet-paper, viagra, mini rc cars (hate those guys), if you unsubscribe they simply change their identity-
If I ever used the word spam (I generally dont like the term) that to me is spam because it is not sent to anyone with ANY interest in what they are offerring-
I believe that sending out an email from one buisness to another for the purpose of sharing information should be acceptable- BUT there is a thin line..
there is always someone that's going to call it "spam"
what is and is not acceptable?

PS. anyone know why they call it spam instead of sardines or vienna sausage??